A forum to discuss HaT products, ETS, uniformology, modeling, painting, and other essentials associated with HaT products.
May I ask Robert, what specific figures are you talking about ? just so we can compare apples with apples
As an example we will look at HAT WWI sets.
German Inf- 25mm
Heavy weapons- 23mm
Ruga Ruga- 24.5mm
If one wants 'real life' as a reason then it would appear the heavy weapons would need 'bigger' guys to carry the load.
The 'light' units a bit smaller. African troops in 'uniform' should not be smaller then the 'native' units......
Although as I stated earlier I am peeved with the size range in the Mid-eighteenth century figures, sometimes things do go well.
With the Early Renaissance/Italian Wars I use figures from Airfix Sheriff of Nottingham and Robin Hood for Henry VIII, Conquistadors from Revell and Ceasar Miniatures, Landsknechts and Heavy Cavalry from DDS, Spanish Army from LW and now the very extensive and still growing range from Red Box and all of these figures with more than forty years difference and a wide range of companies are all in scale with each other. This must prove that it is possible. The great thing about this period and the extensive range of companies is the incredible variety. I even have a couple of metal cannons which are sold as key rings from English Heritage sites with crews from Pikemen in the previously mentioned sets.
I think this is the famous pic that people always bring up when talking about sizes:
and here are two more:
Boxer rebellion: international troops
I understand that people come in all sizes. It even occurs in my family. My son is 6'5" tall while I'm 5'8". However, I want my "little men" to be constant in height. Typically, the first reasonable manufacturer to issue a set for an era tends to set the height requirement for the remainder of that era, as far as I am concerned. Body build and heft should also be consistent. I stopped buying Zvezda and Italeri when they went to the giant 26mm monsters. I will not buy anything that shows a height greater than 25mm. My benchmark is 23mm +/- 1.5mm. I use the Plastic Soldier Review (PSR) height as the guide. HaT is an exception since I buy at least two each of every HaT set as it is issued. They would not be listed in PSR at that time. The HaT Prussians are taller than 25mm but are basically ompatible with the Revell 7YW Prussians.
Again, when a manufacturer decides to "go it alone" on figure size, he loses my money.
If you are willing to buy the Hat SYW Prussian Infantry because they are the same height as those spindly pin headed basket ball players made by Revell, then you should also consider the Zvedza Prussian Grenadiers that are compatible with Hat and have normal human proportions. Having taken that big step you can then pick up the Zvedza Prussian Hussars and the Italeri British Light Dragoons (AWI but the same uniform as worn during the SYW). If on the other hand you go for the correctly sized Revell Prussian Hussars, they will look quite tiny next to the Potsdam Giants. Also if your interest is the AWI and you want the figures to represent Hessians and Brunswickers they will tower over the Accurate British and Americans but can rub shoulders with the Italeri American Infantry. As mentioned in my previous thread the Eigteenth Century has not been treated well when it comes to the compatibility of various sets, even when produced by the same manufacturer.
It seems that I have unintentionally struck a raw nerve. To be honest, I personally do not care if anyone ever produces another 7YW set. It isn't one of my primary or even secondary eras. I have a large number (10 sets) of Revell Prussians because of several reasons. They were on sale really, really really cheap. I had a fixed monthly "use or lose it" hobby budget and there were very few new sets being produced at that time. I am concerned about size in general. In the case of the HaT Prussians, I normally buy 2 boxes of each new HaT set when they come out, with some exceptions. That is what happened. I did not buy the Zvezda sets because I had higher priority purchases to make.
Getting back on point. You want HaT or other manufacturers to make their 7YW Prussian sets smaller We are an older hobby. Most of us have been collecting for years and have reasonably sized armies. Should those who have 7YW armies toss them away because you want new sets in a smaller size? I think that was Zvezda's mistake. They and Italeri jacked up the size of their figures assuming that people would toss their old sets away and start new. I don't think that it worked that well for them. MOST figure collectors/wargamers/whathaveyou like to add new poses to their armies. They want to expand them, not start over. Of course, there are exceptions to this. However, I would guess that they are few and far between.
While dear to Malcolm's heart, the 7YW Prussians are only an example. The truth is that I don't care about the 7YW. However, the principle applies across the board. Before you start an era, look at what has been done before by quality manufacturers (i.e. not MARS, HTTY, etc,)and be compatible so that we can expand our armies and not replace them.
Just my 2 cents.
I think we've rehashed the size/scale so many times over the years everyone should know by now what happens to cause differences in various figures. Too often no matter how attentive and conscientious (or the opposite) a maker might be with the current vast distances (across as many as three continents in some cases) involved in the process of sculpting master figures, making the molds to proper (or improper) size, then casting masters or test figures - getting them back to the maker for check - corrections - and the expense involved (not to mention the pressure to get every new set out yesterday (!!!)) in this process stuff happens to screw it up.
Oh, for the days of the big toy companies like Louis Marx & Co where the maker had total control of the manufacturing process from start to finish.
As the man said, "S[tuff] happens!" It's a fact of life. We live in an imperfect world.
I am 100% agreement with Alan and don't trust Italeri or Zvezda (they're pretty much out of making the little guys so it's a moot point anyway) without checking PSR - good advice all around.
To PDA.... , now I must clean my Keyboard as I just 'spit coffee laughing.
I agree, if at all possible it should be at least the aim to get figures in different sets compatible in size, preferably 23-25 m.m tall.
We have already touched this issue on this thread but let me take it further.
Always when the size issue is discussed, the usual reply is that humans come in different sizes. That is of course true and I have not so much issues with the human bodies being in different sizes, but big sized (and extra small) figures usually also have bigger (or smaller) weapons, bags, pouches, hats, helmets and so on. It is not the body size that bugs me that much, it's the different size of the same type of equipment.
And heads. Even if someone is 2 meters tall and another is 1,5 meters, the head (and therefore helmet/hat) is usually not that different. Of course there are a few with extra big or small sized heads (and bodies), but it is not normal to have a company composed of 50% 2 meter tall giants (unless King Friedrich's own Prussian Grenadiers :), or with 50% being almost midgets.
Have a great day all fellow hobbyists! :D
My buying rule is similar to Pat`s , but in my case they have to look right side by side, so with the 7yw stuff no problem, they are all huge Zulu war, they all sit pretty much side by side, ACTA being a shade small but not so you can`t live with it. But if a figure is 2mm either side of 23.mm in our scale it starts to look out of place side by side with its peers from other makes, and then it`s a not buying it for me, Italeri`s AWI range being the stand out case in point , they will never be trusted again and I now always wait to see them on PSR before buying Italeri figures.
The starter post ( a long way up )talks about size then finishes on scale.
When I buy a toy car for my 4 year old grandson I ask him whether he wants a small one to go in his garage or a large one for his teddies to ride in and lots of different sizes in between. I would be wasting my time saying do you want a 1/76th, 1/43rd, 1/24th etc toy car.
I find it strange that size and scale are confused in this thread. A lot of this is to do with the traditions with toy soldiers and model figures and besides their backpacks they do come with a lot of excess baggage. A big homo sapiens and a little homo sapiens standing next to each other occupy or occupied the same 1:1 scale world. So the simple trick would be to scale the life size figures down using your preferred ratio. Not that easy in times past but professional sculptors used calipers set to the proportion they wanted and more than often these were a step up rather than reduction. Nevertheless a simple flip and they could reduce a dimension from the real model (person) using a caliper. The trouble with a scale like 1/72nd is that the calipers would be working at their limit and apart from body height, shoulder width (general dimensions) and so on the rest had to be made up. Even with larger masters and pantographic reductions there was still a tendency to extemporise the features etc. Many of the sculptors designing the model figures were (and still are) self taught and often they were doing what was required of them with great skill. The trouble was they rarely believed in standardisation afforded by a scale except as one or two dimensions. Nowadays using a computer it is possible to scale a real human figure down to 1/72 scale model and the model looks puny with a tiny head in comparison with most plastic figures. There are lots of other factors but basically each manufacturer developed their style and scale(s) for 1/72nd scale figures which may have been carefully arrived at almost like a trademark or just arrived at. Those who have wide ranging collections will recognise certain sculptors working between manufacturers and their keynote scale. The Preiser sculpted figures of Revell are easy to pick out. Manufacturers that tended and tend to employ a range of sculptors ( inc computers) usually have more fluctuations of scale. The AB range (Fighting 15s now) of mainly WWII 1/72nd scale white metal figures show how consistent a range is when designed and manufactured by a small team.
Therefore size doesn't matter to me one bit but scale and style does when it comes to miniature figures. I think if a manufacturer produces figures in a range that look widely different then that is a mistake as far as I am concerned especially if they are also supposed to be compatible with other manufacturers products. I don't generally buy mistakes but occasionally I have tipped a set straight from the box to the recycling bin and PSR helps out immeasurably but seems to give a size that "condemns" a figure when a head swop could reprieve it. I suppose the bottom line is that I am looking for reasonably realistic figures that look good and are in scale be they 4' 2" or 7' 0" in height in their original human form. Some eras ( eg bladed weapons) I would afford more leniency to as far as scale is concerned and the two policemen show that they have fairly similar sized heads or we might be in danger of saying little people have little brains ahem etc.
IMO, at least for one who has collected for 50+ years scale and size are never confused.
Manufactures started with the scale. 172, 176,etc....based in part to show the item as it related to HO scale railroads
Then Airfix did that OO scale thing. Then came the, to be brief, european sizing. All in MM and no longer as simple to figure out.
Now in our toy soldier world 172 is used. But that can mean anything from 22mm to 27mm.
The point was Not various manufactures do their own thing but they do not keep the same size, scale, whatever within
their own output.
I've read the various posts on this thread & respect people's feelings.
My opinion is I don't find size discrepancy a huge (pun intended) problem.
Sure there's some sets that are unusable but mostly if you keep them in discreet units it doesn't matter.
Revell, Wodenfeld, HaT, Imex, Esci, Zvesda & more: here's my 7YW armies in action:
Scratch built, Bill.
one of our group is a terrain-making genius.
My two favourite French Imperial Guard sets are those produced by Airfix and Zvedza because they are well sculpted and wear Full Dress Uniform. However, you can not line these two sets up side by side or it will look like young boys along side their fathers. This sort of discrepancy in physical bulk is a real shame in our hobby where I think the sales of both would benefit from them being made correctly, in this case Zvedza got it right but I only bought 1 box of them whereas I have a few more of Airfix. At present I use the Airfix casualty figure with my Revell British Line Infantry for the AWI since he is hat less and well sculpted. The Airfix French Line Infantry casualty lying face down with no hat has also been conscripted into the same army.
The bulk of my collection(75000+?) is based on hat,esci,and airfix.So I want figures compatible with those.I was plannig an extensive 18th cenrtury FI,AWI,7yrs but the italeri and revell figures were just to big.
One of the issues is how to measure the figure.
The old Courier magazine (much missed!) made a smart move when it adopted "Toby Barrett" measure in its reviews. Basically, all figures are measured from the top of the stand (or bottom of the feet) to the eye level. Figures may have headgear of various sizes, but almost all allow the eyes to see out*.
In addition to this, the figure was classed as light, medium or heavy for its bulk.
This standard at least made it easier to compare figures from various sources.
I agree that in a scaled size, such as 1/72, there is no reason that objects such as rifles should not always be the same size.
* some gladiator helms do not have eye slits, but that's Sparticus's problem.
Different perspectives here, everyone is entitled to have his own, this is mine:
I like my figures in 23 mm, Asians smaller.
I won't buy any 26+ mm figures, not matter how well they are sculpted and how dearly I "need" them, because they are not compatible to my collection. Regards, Pat
I would buy at least one 28mm figure to go with my average joe 1/72 figures and that would be a correctly done character figure of Harald Hardrada(at least according to the Saga)in Emma... and thats being conservative..
A few Figures(pun intended)
BEF would have to be 23.6mm minimum to be accurate for 1914(5ft 7inches tall otherwise you get sent away)
Roman Soldiers official height is 6 Roman feet(5ft 10inches) so 24.7mm in 1/72... but shorter(and taller) men were accepted... largest foot size I know off is size 14uk 15us for a roman military boot.... belonging to a Centurion
I have not bothered to read the expansive list of responses to this post. However, that said, I have always enjoyed the discrepancies of size believing they add a touch more realism to the craft. Many is the change of command and retirement ceremony, I participated in, where troops lined up from tallest to smallest behind the squad leaders to form the platoon. People are different sizes and piecing these slightly different scales together merely reflects that.
To quote from BLACK ADDER GOES FORTH, "King and Country would have us believe that all British soldiers are strapping 6 footers with muscles the size of Bormoth." (my apologies to those across the pond if misspelled) And the Germans never obtained divisions of their 6 foot, blond haired, blue eyed, ideal soldiers.