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Size matters, so whats the problem?

Why is it so hard for HAT and others to keep to one size for their figures? We get 23mm, 23.5mm,24mm and up and up to some that pop in at 28mm........
So we get a few sets for the same era at 23mm and than a growth spurt begins. So we get 25mm cavalry to go with our smaller foot guys.
Is there a reason that 172 figures can not be a standard size? After all they have NOT been toys since Giant went out of business.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I completely agree with you on this point. Also if a set is produced far too big to be placed alongside other contempary sets from the same or other manufacturers it is a real shame and does not help the hobby. I don´t think that the various manufacturers realise that producing the figurs all to the same size would actually boost sales. When Ceasar produced their first box of Ancient Egyptians they were in 1/72nd scale but obviously shorter than the Atlantic figures. However, they went on to produce more than a dozen further sets for the Bronze Age Chariot Warfare period, so that when Zvedza produced their 26mm giants I only bought 1 box. If they had been in scale with the Ceasar products I would have bought multiple boxes.

Now with my beloved Mid eighteenth Century (SYW AWI) the figures range from 23mm to 26mm and can not be used alongside each other. This is a real pity when by the use of Head Swops I can increase the variety of troop types. On the correct end of 1/72nd scale I have British Light Dragoons made from using Revell SYW Austrian Dragoon Bodies with heavily converted Airfix French Imperial Guard Grenadier Heads Mounted on Airfix French Cuirassier Horses (the ones with the French saddles), after completing this conversion Italeri released a set of 26mm British Light Dragoons that tower over their Infantry comrades and their sister regiment.

Best regards,

Malcolm

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Dear Robert,

It is not so much under control as one might think.

What I want to say is that it depends on the factory and plastic that is used also shrinks once when it gets out of the mold.

Compared to other companies - I think that HaT was the most true to the right size.

Other companies tried to match 28mm figures in order to get to that market. In that case it was deliberate 'scale creep'...

Hope this answers some of your questions...

Cheers!

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Pick a figure any figure, now get ten people in different towns, citys, countrys to measure it for you and compare the results, I guarantee you they will all be different....

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I agree with the statement they should be right, no excuses, but I live in the real world and have spoken to people in the business usually when I am moaning about it, and understand that to err is human, add a few languages in for good measure and sh1t happens...

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Hmmmm.....so the battle guys are 5foot 6inches tall. The marching guys 7 foot 1 inch. Officers 6 foot 3 inches.
Mounted company 4 foot 11 inches on 22 ft horses........Hmmmmmm
To bad when we buy a box there never mixed as real life.
So my question still stands. One would think at least the same range of figures from the same manufacture would be the same size.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

May I ask Robert, what specific figures are you talking about ? just so we can compare apples with apples

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

As an example we will look at HAT WWI sets.
German Inf- 25mm
Heavy weapons- 23mm
Jagers- 24mm
Askari- 24mm
Ruga Ruga- 24.5mm

If one wants 'real life' as a reason then it would appear the heavy weapons would need 'bigger' guys to carry the load.
The 'light' units a bit smaller. African troops in 'uniform' should not be smaller then the 'native' units......

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Although as I stated earlier I am peeved with the size range in the Mid-eighteenth century figures, sometimes things do go well.

With the Early Renaissance/Italian Wars I use figures from Airfix Sheriff of Nottingham and Robin Hood for Henry VIII, Conquistadors from Revell and Ceasar Miniatures, Landsknechts and Heavy Cavalry from DDS, Spanish Army from LW and now the very extensive and still growing range from Red Box and all of these figures with more than forty years difference and a wide range of companies are all in scale with each other. This must prove that it is possible. The great thing about this period and the extensive range of companies is the incredible variety. I even have a couple of metal cannons which are sold as key rings from English Heritage sites with crews from Pikemen in the previously mentioned sets.

Best regards,

Malcolm

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I think this is the famous pic that people always bring up when talking about sizes:



and here are two more:





Boxer rebellion: international troops

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Hi

I understand that people come in all sizes. It even occurs in my family. My son is 6'5" tall while I'm 5'8". However, I want my "little men" to be constant in height. Typically, the first reasonable manufacturer to issue a set for an era tends to set the height requirement for the remainder of that era, as far as I am concerned. Body build and heft should also be consistent. I stopped buying Zvezda and Italeri when they went to the giant 26mm monsters. I will not buy anything that shows a height greater than 25mm. My benchmark is 23mm +/- 1.5mm. I use the Plastic Soldier Review (PSR) height as the guide. HaT is an exception since I buy at least two each of every HaT set as it is issued. They would not be listed in PSR at that time. The HaT Prussians are taller than 25mm but are basically ompatible with the Revell 7YW Prussians.

Again, when a manufacturer decides to "go it alone" on figure size, he loses my money.

Pat Brennan

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

If you are willing to buy the Hat SYW Prussian Infantry because they are the same height as those spindly pin headed basket ball players made by Revell, then you should also consider the Zvedza Prussian Grenadiers that are compatible with Hat and have normal human proportions. Having taken that big step you can then pick up the Zvedza Prussian Hussars and the Italeri British Light Dragoons (AWI but the same uniform as worn during the SYW). If on the other hand you go for the correctly sized Revell Prussian Hussars, they will look quite tiny next to the Potsdam Giants. Also if your interest is the AWI and you want the figures to represent Hessians and Brunswickers they will tower over the Accurate British and Americans but can rub shoulders with the Italeri American Infantry. As mentioned in my previous thread the Eigteenth Century has not been treated well when it comes to the compatibility of various sets, even when produced by the same manufacturer.

Best regards,

Malcolm

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Hi Malcolm

It seems that I have unintentionally struck a raw nerve. To be honest, I personally do not care if anyone ever produces another 7YW set. It isn't one of my primary or even secondary eras. I have a large number (10 sets) of Revell Prussians because of several reasons. They were on sale really, really really cheap. I had a fixed monthly "use or lose it" hobby budget and there were very few new sets being produced at that time. I am concerned about size in general. In the case of the HaT Prussians, I normally buy 2 boxes of each new HaT set when they come out, with some exceptions. That is what happened. I did not buy the Zvezda sets because I had higher priority purchases to make.

Getting back on point. You want HaT or other manufacturers to make their 7YW Prussian sets smaller We are an older hobby. Most of us have been collecting for years and have reasonably sized armies. Should those who have 7YW armies toss them away because you want new sets in a smaller size? I think that was Zvezda's mistake. They and Italeri jacked up the size of their figures assuming that people would toss their old sets away and start new. I don't think that it worked that well for them. MOST figure collectors/wargamers/whathaveyou like to add new poses to their armies. They want to expand them, not start over. Of course, there are exceptions to this. However, I would guess that they are few and far between.

While dear to Malcolm's heart, the 7YW Prussians are only an example. The truth is that I don't care about the 7YW. However, the principle applies across the board. Before you start an era, look at what has been done before by quality manufacturers (i.e. not MARS, HTTY, etc,)and be compatible so that we can expand our armies and not replace them.

Just my 2 cents.

Pat Brennan

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I think we've rehashed the size/scale so many times over the years everyone should know by now what happens to cause differences in various figures. Too often no matter how attentive and conscientious (or the opposite) a maker might be with the current vast distances (across as many as three continents in some cases) involved in the process of sculpting master figures, making the molds to proper (or improper) size, then casting masters or test figures - getting them back to the maker for check - corrections - and the expense involved (not to mention the pressure to get every new set out yesterday (!!!)) in this process stuff happens to screw it up.


Oh, for the days of the big toy companies like Louis Marx & Co where the maker had total control of the manufacturing process from start to finish.

As the man said, "S[tuff] happens!" It's a fact of life. We live in an imperfect world.

I am 100% agreement with Alan and don't trust Italeri or Zvezda (they're pretty much out of making the little guys so it's a moot point anyway) without checking PSR - good advice all around.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

To PDA.... , now I must clean my Keyboard as I just 'spit coffee laughing.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

ironsides
Pick a figure any figure, now get ten people in different towns, citys, countrys to measure it for you and compare the results, I guarantee you they will all be different....



Yes, but a Lee Enfield they're carrying would be the same size.

Also, the differences in size in the Emhar set - dwarves and giants. A couple of milimeters here and there and it all gets effed up. "Average height" is a thing, and miniatures should go by that.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

zirrian
ironsides
Pick a figure any figure, now get ten people in different towns, citys, countrys to measure it for you and compare the results, I guarantee you they will all be different....



Yes, but a Lee Enfield they're carrying would be the same size.

Also, the differences in size in the Emhar set - dwarves and giants. A couple of milimeters here and there and it all gets effed up. "Average height" is a thing, and miniatures should go by that.


What has this got to do with Lee Enfields Dwarves or Giants?, a previous poster asked the question why multiple manufacturers have difficulty in ensuring that all figures are produced to a standard size ... I gave the answer to that question...

It should be rather obvious that it is not an easy prospect to achieve a standard size particularly over multiple figures sets, each one produced at a different time by potentially different people, each having their own way of estimating size and idea of proportion etc... the wonder is that any of them come out the "right size" at all...


Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

ironsides

What has this got to do with Lee Enfields Dwarves or Giants?, a previous poster asked the question why multiple manufacturers have difficulty in ensuring that all figures are produced to a standard size ... I gave the answer to that question...

It should be rather obvious that it is not an easy prospect to achieve a standard size particularly over multiple figures sets, each one produced at a different time by potentially different people, each having their own way of estimating size and idea of proportion etc... the wonder is that any of them come out the "right size" at all...



If the figure is bigger, then his weapon is bigger as well. The SMLE was just an example, you can say musket, spear, sword, whatever, my point still stands. Different heights can be factored in, but different weapon sizes? Not really.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I agree, if at all possible it should be at least the aim to get figures in different sets compatible in size, preferably 23-25 m.m tall.

We have already touched this issue on this thread but let me take it further.

Always when the size issue is discussed, the usual reply is that humans come in different sizes. That is of course true and I have not so much issues with the human bodies being in different sizes, but big sized (and extra small) figures usually also have bigger (or smaller) weapons, bags, pouches, hats, helmets and so on. It is not the body size that bugs me that much, it's the different size of the same type of equipment.

And heads. Even if someone is 2 meters tall and another is 1,5 meters, the head (and therefore helmet/hat) is usually not that different. Of course there are a few with extra big or small sized heads (and bodies), but it is not normal to have a company composed of 50% 2 meter tall giants (unless King Friedrich's own Prussian Grenadiers :), or with 50% being almost midgets.

Have a great day all fellow hobbyists! :D

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

My buying rule is similar to Pat`s , but in my case they have to look right side by side, so with the 7yw stuff no problem, they are all huge Zulu war, they all sit pretty much side by side, ACTA being a shade small but not so you can`t live with it. But if a figure is 2mm either side of 23.mm in our scale it starts to look out of place side by side with its peers from other makes, and then it`s a not buying it for me, Italeri`s AWI range being the stand out case in point , they will never be trusted again and I now always wait to see them on PSR before buying Italeri figures.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

The starter post ( a long way up )talks about size then finishes on scale.
When I buy a toy car for my 4 year old grandson I ask him whether he wants a small one to go in his garage or a large one for his teddies to ride in and lots of different sizes in between. I would be wasting my time saying do you want a 1/76th, 1/43rd, 1/24th etc toy car.
I find it strange that size and scale are confused in this thread. A lot of this is to do with the traditions with toy soldiers and model figures and besides their backpacks they do come with a lot of excess baggage. A big homo sapiens and a little homo sapiens standing next to each other occupy or occupied the same 1:1 scale world. So the simple trick would be to scale the life size figures down using your preferred ratio. Not that easy in times past but professional sculptors used calipers set to the proportion they wanted and more than often these were a step up rather than reduction. Nevertheless a simple flip and they could reduce a dimension from the real model (person) using a caliper. The trouble with a scale like 1/72nd is that the calipers would be working at their limit and apart from body height, shoulder width (general dimensions) and so on the rest had to be made up. Even with larger masters and pantographic reductions there was still a tendency to extemporise the features etc. Many of the sculptors designing the model figures were (and still are) self taught and often they were doing what was required of them with great skill. The trouble was they rarely believed in standardisation afforded by a scale except as one or two dimensions. Nowadays using a computer it is possible to scale a real human figure down to 1/72 scale model and the model looks puny with a tiny head in comparison with most plastic figures. There are lots of other factors but basically each manufacturer developed their style and scale(s) for 1/72nd scale figures which may have been carefully arrived at almost like a trademark or just arrived at. Those who have wide ranging collections will recognise certain sculptors working between manufacturers and their keynote scale. The Preiser sculpted figures of Revell are easy to pick out. Manufacturers that tended and tend to employ a range of sculptors ( inc computers) usually have more fluctuations of scale. The AB range (Fighting 15s now) of mainly WWII 1/72nd scale white metal figures show how consistent a range is when designed and manufactured by a small team.
Therefore size doesn't matter to me one bit but scale and style does when it comes to miniature figures. I think if a manufacturer produces figures in a range that look widely different then that is a mistake as far as I am concerned especially if they are also supposed to be compatible with other manufacturers products. I don't generally buy mistakes but occasionally I have tipped a set straight from the box to the recycling bin and PSR helps out immeasurably but seems to give a size that "condemns" a figure when a head swop could reprieve it. I suppose the bottom line is that I am looking for reasonably realistic figures that look good and are in scale be they 4' 2" or 7' 0" in height in their original human form. Some eras ( eg bladed weapons) I would afford more leniency to as far as scale is concerned and the two policemen show that they have fairly similar sized heads or we might be in danger of saying little people have little brains ahem etc.


Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

IMO, at least for one who has collected for 50+ years scale and size are never confused.
Manufactures started with the scale. 172, 176,etc....based in part to show the item as it related to HO scale railroads
items .
Then Airfix did that OO scale thing. Then came the, to be brief, european sizing. All in MM and no longer as simple to figure out.
Now in our toy soldier world 172 is used. But that can mean anything from 22mm to 27mm.
The point was Not various manufactures do their own thing but they do not keep the same size, scale, whatever within
their own output.

Re: Size doesn't matters, to me.

I've read the various posts on this thread & respect people's feelings.

My opinion is I don't find size discrepancy a huge (pun intended) problem.

Sure there's some sets that are unusable but mostly if you keep them in discreet units it doesn't matter.

Revell, Wodenfeld, HaT, Imex, Esci, Zvesda & more: here's my 7YW armies in action:

 photo IMG_9706_zpsgx7vkuwj.jpg
 photo IMG_9723_zpsah7zwqkf.jpg

 photo IMG_9698_zpsdjxkewv4.jpg

 photo IMG_9732_zpsgrew4g2w.jpg



donald

Re: Size doesn't matters, to me.

paint dog
I've read the various posts on this thread & respect people's feelings.

My opinion is I don't find size discrepancy a huge (pun intended) problem.

Sure there's some sets that are unusable but mostly if you keep them in discreet units it doesn't matter.

Revell, Wodenfeld, HaT, Imex, Esci, Zvesda & more: here's my 7YW armies in action:

 photo IMG_9706_zpsgx7vkuwj.jpg
 photo IMG_9723_zpsah7zwqkf.jpg

 photo IMG_9698_zpsdjxkewv4.jpg

 photo IMG_9732_zpsgrew4g2w.jpg



donald


I see your point. At this distance they all look the same size to me!

Nice scenery here. Did you make it, buy it, or both? I especially like that star fort.

As for my own armies, I buy whatever is made that I need, regardless of maker, within reason. I won't buy 28mm plastics because A they're designed to fit with similar metal figures;B they're way outsize compared to 1/72, and C they're way too expen$ive to be building my armies around.

In my scale, I have Airfix French Grenadiers fighting alongside Italeri infantry and Zvezda artillery. I'd prefer them a little closer in size to the others, but not many Grenadiers are made in full dress; most are in campaign dress, and I have a huge stock of Airfix figures of all types, too many to try replacing at this date!

Bill

Re: Size doesn't matters, to me.

Scratch built, Bill.

one of our group is a terrain-making genius.

donald

Re: Size doesn't matters, to me.

paint dog
Scratch built, Bill.

one of our group is a terrain-making genius.

donald


I wholeheartedly agree. This is a lot better than anything I've ever made. I think Jon's in his class, though, having seen his work.;

Bill

Re: Size doesn't matter, to me.

Hi Bill,

My two favourite French Imperial Guard sets are those produced by Airfix and Zvedza because they are well sculpted and wear Full Dress Uniform. However, you can not line these two sets up side by side or it will look like young boys along side their fathers. This sort of discrepancy in physical bulk is a real shame in our hobby where I think the sales of both would benefit from them being made correctly, in this case Zvedza got it right but I only bought 1 box of them whereas I have a few more of Airfix. At present I use the Airfix casualty figure with my Revell British Line Infantry for the AWI since he is hat less and well sculpted. The Airfix French Line Infantry casualty lying face down with no hat has also been conscripted into the same army.

Best regards,

Malcolm

Re: Size doesn't matter, to me.

Malcolm
Hi Bill,

My two favourite French Imperial Guard sets are those produced by Airfix and Zvedza because they are well sculpted and wear Full Dress Uniform. However, you can not line these two sets up side by side or it will look like young boys along side their fathers. This sort of discrepancy in physical bulk is a real shame in our hobby where I think the sales of both would benefit from them being made correctly, in this case Zvedza got it right but I only bought 1 box of them whereas I have a few more of Airfix. At present I use the Airfix casualty figure with my Revell British Line Infantry for the AWI since he is hat less and well sculpted. The Airfix French Line Infantry casualty lying face down with no hat has also been conscripted into the same army.

Best regards,

Malcolm


And hi to you, too, Malcolm! The reason I use so many Airfix Grenadiers is because I got a ton of them early on, back when I was in the Navy on shore leave in Singapore and found a store having a half price sale. You should've seen the checkout girl's face when I brought all those Airfix sets up to the counter. A stack of boxes with legs! I got so many Napoleonic and AWI figures from that one purchase that I'm still painting them thirty-eight years later.

The Grenadiers were some of Airfix's earliest figures, along with their Cuirassiers, done in a smaller scale to match model railroad equipment that was closer to 1/87 scale. Later on Airfix changed to 1/75, hence the range being described as 'HO-OO' on the boxes. Unfortunately while they redid several of their WW2 sets, notably British and German infantry, they never got around to redoing the Grenadiers or Cuirassiers.

I agree, they are beautifully sculpted and nicely detailed. I've also found they actually paint up faster, easier and better than many larger figures. Reportedly they were sculpted by the legendary Ray Lamb, one of the finest designers of 54mm display figures of his time.

Zvezda figures are excellent, the plastic hard enough to take paint readily but especially assembled figures clip together perfectly. Their major drawback is the lugs inside the legs of their horsemen, intended to fit into holes in the horse sides, a retrograde feature I've only seen in very old dime-store toys. They do ensure the riders won't come off--but the stiffness of the plastic mean the pins are more likely to deform before they fit! Fortunately if clipped off completely the riders fit on very well, which reveals another minor drawback: each man is designed to fit best on one particular horse, and which one can only be determined by trial and error(guess who found out all this the hard way?). Once matched up, though, they fit like corks in a bottle.

I buy Zvezdas mainly to fill holes in existing armies. The French Cuirassiers and Grenadiers look very good alongside Airfix or HaT infantry, and fill missing slots in HaT's range.

I've found the casualty figures make good sources of heads, arms and weapons for conversions.One occasion I was short of charging Cuirassiers, but had an excess of ACW cavalry casualties. I took the Airfix man crouching behind a dead horse, cut him off below the cuirass and coat-tails, then matched him up with the ACW legs. A little trimming of the pants, and I had a passable charging pose. Painted to match and lined up with their fellows, the difference is unnoticeable.

Naturally I discovered a couple of extra boxes right after I finished them!

Bill

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

The bulk of my collection(75000+?) is based on hat,esci,and airfix.So I want figures compatible with those.I was plannig an extensive 18th cenrtury FI,AWI,7yrs but the italeri and revell figures were just to big.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

One of the issues is how to measure the figure.

The old Courier magazine (much missed!) made a smart move when it adopted "Toby Barrett" measure in its reviews. Basically, all figures are measured from the top of the stand (or bottom of the feet) to the eye level. Figures may have headgear of various sizes, but almost all allow the eyes to see out*.

In addition to this, the figure was classed as light, medium or heavy for its bulk.

This standard at least made it easier to compare figures from various sources.

I agree that in a scaled size, such as 1/72, there is no reason that objects such as rifles should not always be the same size.


* some gladiator helms do not have eye slits, but that's Sparticus's problem.

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

David

I agree that in a scaled size, such as 1/72, there is no reason that objects such as rifles should not always be the same size.



Your looking at it from the point of view of a finished piece, not the tool maker...

The figures are pantographed down, now assuming that a exact height is chosen for the master (say 6" for a scale height of 5' 9") and the rifle modelled with the figure is in proportion with this... and the master is reduced in size to its scale height in 1/72 exactly (24.3mm)... then your correct...
But you cannot adjust the length of the weapon seperatly from the figure and the length will depend on whether or not the sculptur has got it in proportion to the original scale of the master.... and the tool maker reduces the master accordingly to a scale height of 5' 9" in 1/72(24mm approx)....

just about anything can cause a variation...if the toolmaker produces a figure of 23mm or 25mm which is still well within the human range, the length of the weapon will be noticably different, though it will be more noticable on longer weapons, if the sculptur makes the weapon to short or too long etc even if the figure is at the correct scale height the weapon will be wrong.... now heres the rub the toolmaker has no knowledge about or any idea of the length of any given weapon....

Now spread these people around the planet and give them limited communication...


Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

Different perspectives here, everyone is entitled to have his own, this is mine:

I like my figures in 23 mm, Asians smaller.

I won't buy any 26+ mm figures, not matter how well they are sculpted and how dearly I "need" them, because they are not compatible to my collection. Regards, Pat

Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I would buy at least one 28mm figure to go with my average joe 1/72 figures and that would be a correctly done character figure of Harald Hardrada(at least according to the Saga)in Emma... and thats being conservative..

A few Figures(pun intended)
BEF would have to be 23.6mm minimum to be accurate for 1914(5ft 7inches tall otherwise you get sent away)
Roman Soldiers official height is 6 Roman feet(5ft 10inches) so 24.7mm in 1/72... but shorter(and taller) men were accepted... largest foot size I know off is size 14uk 15us for a roman military boot.... belonging to a Centurion


Re: Size matters, so whats the problem?

I have not bothered to read the expansive list of responses to this post. However, that said, I have always enjoyed the discrepancies of size believing they add a touch more realism to the craft. Many is the change of command and retirement ceremony, I participated in, where troops lined up from tallest to smallest behind the squad leaders to form the platoon. People are different sizes and piecing these slightly different scales together merely reflects that.

To quote from BLACK ADDER GOES FORTH, "King and Country would have us believe that all British soldiers are strapping 6 footers with muscles the size of Bormoth." (my apologies to those across the pond if misspelled) And the Germans never obtained divisions of their 6 foot, blond haired, blue eyed, ideal soldiers.